Showing posts with label IVF. Show all posts
Showing posts with label IVF. Show all posts

Tuesday, May 12, 2009

The IVF Game - "Get Your Popcorn Ready"

Although there’s still one more turn in the original “IF- Press Your Luck Plan”, my mind has already taken me to my next game. The original plan calls for one more IUI, with probable last minute play call to change to the meds from clo.mid to injectibles. But, as my therapist tells me I have a tendency to think ahead. And here is a glimpse into where my head is at right now.

The IUI season’s just about over and we’re in the semi-finals. We’ve decided to go ahead and secure our draft picks and are in current talks for trades. Our players are currently in IVF Spring Training. Here’s our roster, with four teams, support staff and sponsors.

The Teams:
The Ovaries - Team Captains’ “Lefty” & “Righty”
The Sperm aka “Spermicus”
The Doctor aka “Dr. Blue Eyes”
The Embryologist: “The Wizard of Oz”

Support Staff:
The Nurse Staff aka “The Smart Ones”
Birth Control “No Baby” Pills
Lupron aka “Loopy”
Menapur aka “Bipolar”
Gonal-F aka “Pokie”
HcG aka “Trigger”
Follistim aka “Dial-a-dose”
Progesterone aka “Hooha Pill”

Sponsors Include:
Employer w/ Great Benefits
Home State of Employer with mandated infertility coverage
Nationally recognized Insurance Company

The game of IVF is rather unusual. Most team sports only have one team play the opposition at any given time. This has four. In addition, the four teams actually bring the support staff to the playing field. One game is six weeks long. No matter how many games played, every game is always the championship round. Games can be easily cancelled or postponed due to over reactive support staff or a Team of Ovaries who need to call Jenny. The winner is determined by a combination of complicated point system and judges. The deliberation period to announce the winner is nine months long.

But similarly to most sports the characteristics of great players are the same. Endurance is a key element. Without this, an IVF player will most assuredly fail. Training is an absolute must. Most teams undergo years of training. The Ovaries team however is is known to squeeze in knowledge that would take “The Doctors” years to learn in just a few short months. Truly remarkable. The amount of self discipline and dedication of those who engage in the game of IVF, could easily be compared to medal winning Olympians sans the Bob Co.stas commentaries.

The last similarity is that both scenarios include Fans/Cheerleaders. (Or at least they should…) These cheerleaders are located at all parts of the globe and become an integral part of the game. They receive no compensation or even the ability to offer the game players whom they have come to love a hug. However, they stand by ready to offer their support and show this so willingly and freely you would be hard pressed to find an earthly equivalent.

So, you ready to get your game face on? Bring it!

Thursday, May 7, 2009

What I Learned Today - IVF Consult #2


I suppose the one benefit of having RE consults back to back is that the last interaction is fresh in the mind as you have the next one. So, how did the "guest team" do today? Did they beat out the home team? Any strikes? See for yourself


  • New Clinic (aka Innie Clinic as they are In Network as opposed to yesterday which for IVF purposes is mostly Outtie) is about the same distance away than the other office, so there's no real difference there. [0 points]

  • They had a lovely fish acquarium with the exact same fish from Finding N.emo! (ha, ha...I know this one is not very important for narrowing down your RE clinics...but I can't help it!) [5 points!]

  • Music in the waiting room [2 points!]

  • The technition they had who took my blood pressure, weight, other stats was nice but drove me bananas when she took down my allergies. "How do you spell Tetracycline?" "Sulfa is s-u-l-p-h-a right?" No! Then I had to spell everything else! Cipro, C-i-p-r-o. Codeine, C-o-d-e-i-n-e. Darvocet, D-a-r-v... V NOT B! I should have just wrote them down myself. The only one she got right was penicillin. [Negative -2 points!!!!]

  • New RE (aka Dr. Blue Eyes) is kinda a young guy, but very nice. I'm sure Dr. Diet Coke probably has a good 16-18 years experience in the field on him. And totally I respect her, but one of the things that drives me crazy is that partway through my questions she thinks she knows what I'm about to ask so she finishes my supposed thought and then answers. I find myself saying, "Yes, I completely understand - but that's not my question." Since this doctor hasn't endured 18 years of the exact same questions over and over again...he still has the patience to listen to my question fully before answering. He was also very thourough in his explainations. [50 points]

  • The office adiminstration staff so far has not impressed me. First, it started the day before when I called them to confirm my appointment and give them a heads up that I was faxing over my paperwork...

Dingy Desk clerk: Oh, well you don't have to do that
Me: Yes, but it says right here to send my paperwork in advance. Besides, I think the doctor is going to need my records and test results from the other clinic for our consultation.
Dingy Desk clerk: No, just bring it tomorrow. We can do it when you come in.
Me: Won't you have to verify my insurance?
Dingy Desk clerk: Yes, we did that already...Oh, here it is - you will pay 80% after you meet your $3000 deductible.
Me: Could you call my insurance again? That information is not correct.
Dingy Desk clerk: No, that is correct - I called them myself.
Me: Well, that doesn't make sense - my insurance is either 70% out of network after a $6000 deductible OR 90% in network after a $3000 deductible. So, I have no idea where 80% is coming from. Oh, and by the way I've already met the $3000 deductible.
Dingy Desk clerk: No, it's 80%.
Me: Can you have someone call again?
Dingy Desk clerk: No, but you can call them and ask, but they told me 80% after you meet your $3000 deductible.
Me: But, I've already met my deductible.
Dingy Desk clerk: Okay, well just 80% then!

five minutes later...
Me: Hi, this is Liv. I was speaking to someone a little while ago about my insurance coverage but I didn't catch their name?
Dingy Desk clerk: Yes, that was me.
Me: Okay, I just got off the phone with my insurance and they told me it was 90%. Please update your records.
Dingy Desk clerk: But, they told me 80%.
Me: Yes, I understand. Regardless, they have record of your clinic's tax id calling in today, and they have it recorded that they told you 90%. Not sure what happened there, but if you could just call again if you're uncertain it should be 90% that would be great. Thanks! [-10 points]

The next day (today). I requested to speak to the insurance coordinator to verify some things and ask some additional questions after we completed the consultation. I expected to be taken to someone's desk who would then hand me their business card when he/she was done. Nope! I was taken to...Dingy Desk clerk in vivo!

(Dr. Blue Eyes handed her my folder said, "Could you go over insurance coverage with-")
Dingy Desk clerk in Vivo: (cuts the doctor off) Okay. Sure.
Me: Can you confirm with me my insurance coverage?
Dingy Desk clerk in Vivo: Yes. Well, your insurance doesn't cover any infertility testing or treatments. So, I just need to tell you that you are going to be completely responsible to pay all of the costs.
Me: (who has been shaking my head from the words doesn't cover any and scoffed at "pay all of the costs"...) No, that is not correct.
Dingy Desk clerk in Vivo: (who should have used this opportunity check the FOLDER!) Yes, well BS insurance provider doesn't covery anything.
Me: Who's record are you looking at? Because it's not me. My name is Liv, and I don't have BS insurance provider
Dingy Desk clerk in vivo: Oh, right....Your covered 90% so you will simply pay 10% of the total cost.
Me: Well, I'm only $588 from my total out of pocket maximum, so it will only be 10% up to a total cost of $588 and then 100% right?
Dingy Desk clerk in vivo: Yes.
[So, I'm going to deduct 5 points for not reading my folder and telling me I had 0 coverage...But, I will grant 5 points back for getting it right in the end. Then 100 points for being IN-Network.]

Did you guys catch that? As long as I stay in network, $588 dollars is all I will pay for the rest of the year! That's for up to 3 IUI's, 3 IVF's including ICSI. Who else wants to do a HAPPY DANCE!!! Hot Diggity.


  • Their live birth success rates are higher than my beloved Outtie clinic. (Which I don't think is a knock against Outtie, but is favorable for Innie clinic) [10 points]

  • Dr. Blue Eyes is less experienced, does have pretty good credentials and is partnered with a highly experienced tenured RE. [Net 0 points]

  • I have no way (unless anybody has any other ideas) of evaluating the BIGGEST part of their IVF services - THE LAB. Well, besides the CDC stats. As Nishkanu expertly pointed out it might not be worth the cost and not to mention emotional savings bank if the RE is good but the Lab not being so great. Anything else I can use to evaulate besides the CDC stats?

Okay, so I'll leave you guys with that information for now. I'll come back and give you my final verdict. For now I must go to bed!

Wednesday, May 6, 2009

What I Learned Today - IVF Consult #1

Gonna-quickly-run-through-what-I-learned-today-because-I'm-sleepy-and-I-have-to-do-it-all-again-tomorrow.


***Please forgive my rants (and future rants) about frustrating insurance and subsequent predicaments. I so realize I am truly blessed to have any coverage whatsoever***


  • I had my IVF Consult with existing RE, Dr. K (aka Dr. Diet Coke as she always has three at her desk) This was also the meeting I needed to make the determination whether I was going to use this clinic or not given the fact that their lab stuff is independent and out of network.

  • How much is really lab vs. doc when it comes to IVF anyways??? Answer: lab/surgery group: 85% Highly Educated Reproductive Endocrinologist: 15% (not including meds)

  • What 2009 Liv would have told 2008 Liv when researching RE's LAST year... ask the question above whilst researching RE's!!! Oh, and out-of-network coverage doesn't mean 70% vs. 90%...it means 70% after a $6000 deductible. Oh, and put a $500 bet on the Kentucky Derby horse with the 50 to 1 odds, because then the above...wouldn't matter.

  • Insurance covers 3 IVF including ICSI, and PGD testing, (and supposedly meds...awaiting confirmation) up to 90% . This just through this year as I have met my in-network deductible of $3000.

  • The only part that is in-network with Dr. Diet Coke RE office is only $2400 of a $12-13,000 expense.

  • I have no shame in saying "vaginal suppositories" when speaking to the insurance company when inquiring about covered perscriptions.

  • I actually learned nothing new from my RE IVF consult. I already knew how a Lupron vs. Antagonist protocol worked, ICSI (which may or may not be necessary), and the risks of injectible medications. I also already knew about a study they were a part of that offered $2000 payment towards costs. And I found out about that completely independently from their information.

  • Despite covering 3 complete IVF's including ICSI and PGD...My insurance company DOES NOT COVER FET. Makes absolutely zero sense to me. They said it was b/c they put it in the same category as surrogacy. (can you feel my anger? I'll post more on this later...)

  • They also do not cover any of the freezing/crypreservation of embryos should we have leftover fertilized from fresh cycle

  • It will cost me $5000 FREAKIN' dollars if I use Dr. Diet Coke RE office whom I know and love. Yet even with this $5000 cost, it still goes against my 3 lifetime limit.

  • Supposedly new RE is completely In-Network for everything. I'm still leary of this, and the practice as I have no other information to judge them by....until I check it out myself. Wish me luck.

Sunday, May 3, 2009

It's All About the Odds Baby


In my line of work, we spend a lot of time going over the concept of risk versus reward/return. I decided that I would carry this over into infertility and the world of ART. I'd like to take this illustration for the benefit of those in the midst of deciding what step to take or are fretting over the success of the path they choose.

Many of us who are part of the ALI world get caught up in the cases where things did not work out successfully and we immediately think the worst is going to happen to us too. But, there are no absolutes. And many times we just end up being more exposed to those that have had a bumpier journey than those that have had everything work out. You don't really see someone who although may have technically been in the category of infertile have everything work out the first time starting an infertility blog. But, they do exist. For something to have a 50% chance of success that means that with two people one person who succeeds has a rate of 100% whereas the other person is at 0%.

In my case, I have been caught up in the thought that even after 3 IVF attempts (the number I am limited to under my insurance) I will still end up with three BFN's. Why? Because I've seen so many woman who have gone through greater than 3 attempts and with no pregnancy. And I think how things haven't worked out for me so far in the last 8 years of TTC what makes me think this will be different? In addition, I like many others pondered the question of why should I continue with a course like IUI when it has such a limited success rate vs. IVF? I now think I have a few items that may help with this decision making process.

First we will illustrate odds with a little game. The Flip-A-Coin to Make a Baby Game. What I'm going to do is show you what 50% odds look like. This represents the odds in the case of IVF. *Why 50%? Woman less than age 38 have a 45-50% chance of success. What I did was flip a coin 100 times. Which remember has odds of 50/50 as well. If it landed heads it equaled a baby, if it were tails it was no baby. I did this 100 times so that way we had a statistically valid sample. The 100 attempts represents 100 different woman like me who have three shots at IVF.

I broke the 100 participants into 4 groups. Each group ended up with four kinds of results:
First attempt: In Yellow
Second attempt: In Teal
Third attempt: In Pink
No baby after Three: In Grey

Click here to view the full experiment results.

I know there's a major commitment here in reviewing my results but seriously take a look at it. You could take a look at a few things. For one thing you might be thinking..."Man -Group Two - they had a 92% success rate they rocked...-Group Four- had an 84% success rate...they sucked." BUT, if you factor in the first and second shots - Group Four ended up with almost the same number of babies, 19 to Group Two's 20.

If I have just completely lost you then just look at the bottom line to my mad scientifically unscientific skills. Even though any given ONE shot only ever had a 50% chance of a baby...when you factor in three attempts it jumps the odds up to 86%! The highest chance was on the first attempt at 48%!

Which if any one has ever taken a look at the "odds of success" of IVF it is plus or minus a few points, right in line with my experiment. I'm not trying to minimize the difficulty of IVF, or gloss over the ones who ended up with no baby by any means. There were 14 woman out of the 100 who ended up with three BFN's. It was really tough on those 14 woman. What I'm trying to do is help those of us who think we are facing an absolute impossibility to realize that there really were 86 woman for whom it did work. By golly, they do exist! Does this make anybody besides me feel better? I really hope so.

What about if you are like me and have currently undergone two IUI's and you are wondering why continue the course? Or maybe this is all new to you anyway and your not sure what your treatment path should look like. Take a look at this chart. (Seriously, click on the link and look at it)

Decision Making Progress. I found it in a woman's health book (shocking! I know!). It was created by a Houston RE who has this chart on his website.

Okay, I know reading my post required may more commitment than you were prepared for, but hang in there with me a second.

It covers a lot, so let me explain. First, what it shows you is the fecundity rate (READ: Success rate) of: The Normal Fertile Couple, The Subfertile (READ: Infertile) Couple with no treatment, The Subfertile Couple + IUI/Clomid, The Subfertile Couple + IUI/Injectibles, The Subfertile Couple + IVF. Then it lists out their success rate at various month increments. It also covers the commitment level of each step. Monitoring an ovulation cycle is cheap and easy vs. IVF involves anesthesia and surgery. Lastly it covers the medical risk of multiples and medical risk of hyperstimulation requiring hospitalization with each type of scenario.

I'm telling you I love this chart.

Look at the normal fertile couple for a second. Yeah, I know we want to strangle them for their "luck" sometimes...but look - after 12 months they have a 93% chance of becoming pregnant. That's not exactly random luck is it? Or how about after 24 months at 99%? How much closer to an absolute can you get?

Now, let's look at the infertile couple doing nothing but just timed intercourse. Even though their odds of success in any given month is way less than the fertile couple, after 24 months it's 38%. That's not so shabby really. Of course the downside is that it is a lot of time, and in woman's reproductive years that is an eternity.

So, how about the IUI + Clomid couple? After four months they have a 39% chance of success with pretty minor medical cost and risk.

Moving on to IUI + Injectible couple. After four months they have a 67% chance of success. We have increased the risks a bit, but still a pretty healthy shot I would say.

Then there's the IVF couple. 90% by attempt number three.

What I also want you to notice is how much the jumps are with each month increment. As you increase your attempts at doing the say IVF...the incremental increase you are making doesn't increase as much. 1-2% jumped to 60% with the first attempt...that is HUGE. But the jump from attempt 2 to 3... not so much. What you should be asking yourself is, "Is it worth the increased risk for such a small jump in odds?"

Obviously, changing the game around with say donor gametes changes everything too. But, that's an illustration for another day.

I'm sorry for such a cumbersome post for such a trivial concept as odds. I hope this helps you to really understand the risk/reward of the ART treatment you are either considering or are currently undergoing. Good luck to you all!!!